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Topic: The Roakana Q&A Thread  (Read 9634 times)
Katran
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« on: October 05, 2009, 08:46:14 PM »

Here is a copy of at least part of an old thread from 2004 in which game developer Roakana (aka Dellekamp Siefert) was kind enough to answer many of our questions about Undying and gave us a great deal of valuable information.  I'm going to have to do some serious copying and pasting, as I don't know how else to get the information off my Open Office program and into these forums, so bear with me.  It will be a work in progress for a little bit.

ETA:  Okay, I think the best way to do this is just copy and past the info into quotes, since there are several different posters in that thread.  I am putting Roakana's posts in blue and leaving the others to the forum default.  If anyone has a hard time reading them, let me know (and why) and I'll tweak it around.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 08:53:32 PM by Katran » Logged
Katran
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 08:47:20 PM »

Quote
Roakana
Posted - 21 April 2004 23:3 PST      

Hey,
Ok I noticed some some of the other posts I commented on had questions about Undying. I dont mind answering some inquiries (Katran seems to be off to an early lead...), but I think we should try to focus them in this one String so I can make sure I notice them.
Thanks
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 21 April 2004 23:44 PST      

For fun here are a couple notes
You will notice that the Map pack has a folder called Aeons.sac
THe original title of the game was Strange Aeons. The extention then was Strange Aeons Content (as I recall) mostly cause we wanted to say sac.
-- 2 trivia bonus points if you can get the original quote and author for SA. No the trivia answer is not Metallica.--
After we feed back was against Strange Aeons We went with Siog.
Siog is the name the team wanted the game to be called. Of course if you look at it you will realize the word it nearly unpronouceable. Hey we were artists and we did have our reason.
Siog (Shee' owg) is a Celtic word for "Spirit World" and was damn fitting for a horror game set in early 20th Century Ireland. Of course executives would always say (Sy OG, or Cee OhG) and the future death of the name was all but certain.
So for awhile we were unnamed since we were certain Clive would have some ideas once he came onboard.... Of course Marketing eventually named it Undying. Not a bad name at all but I still have a place in my heart for Siog.
Maybe my first born will be named Siog. Of course any wife I have would veto that. Maybe a cat. They can't complain.
---
Next
there are some Easter Eggs. I havent seen almost any mention of them.
Here are 4
Has anyone found the Undying version of Galaga near the beginning of the game?
Have you seen the Giant Sheep?
Did you witness the mini puppet show?
Is there a disco inferno?
in addition many of the team are mentioned throughout the game in journal entries, tombstones etc.
Now I can tell you how to find most of those but some are even lost to me. I just remember them being created.
---
nuff for now.
Thanks.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 22 April 2004 12:47 PST      

Yeah, I'm on quite a bit lately. I hurt my back almost a month ago and am off work for awhile. Needless to say, I'm getting pretty bored, since I can't do even the simplest of things.
I can't find any quote about Strange Aeons (found a cd and a game forum, but they didn't seem to be what I was looking for). Can you give us a hint?
The four easter eggs you mentioned are all ones I've found. As for designer's names being hidden in the game, that I did not notice, though I'm guessing the names of some of the monks in the journal entries might be some of them? Where are they? I love finding things like that, but I guess I just wasn't expecting anything beyond the easter eggs (the disco of hell is my favorite; "Ahhh! My skin!!!" LOL).
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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katran
Posted - 22 April 2004 13:0 PST      

So, my questions:
What exactly was the Undying King? How did the whole situation work with the Covenant siblings apparently absorbing his power and then that power being released with their (final) deaths? Did each remaining sibling gain their undead siblings' power as Patrick destroyed them, making Jeremiah the most powerful in the end?
Who among the siblings was the most powerful, in your opinion?
Patrick's monologue at the end of the game mentioned other gateways guarded by other monasteries around the world. Does this mean that this whole scenario could happen again, or was there only one book (the one the siblings used at the stones)?
And what did happen to that book?
What happened to the scythe after Patrick is thrown off the isle of Standing Stones at the end?
If the Scythe of the Celt separates the soul from the body, why was Lizbeth's head still talking after being severed from her body? Why is she the only one of the siblings to do this?
The skeletal monks seem to be minions of Lizbeth, but on several occasions in the boss battle with her, I was able to get them to attack her. Is this a game glitch, or do the monks only guard the monastery and catacombs against everyone, even Lizbeth? They usually ignore her and go after Patrick.

I think that's enough for now. Thanks.
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Roakana
Posted - 22 April 2004 14:9 PST      

As far as Strange Aeons I will let that slide for awhile. See if anyone else can get it.
K: What exactly was the Undying King? How did the whole situation work with the Covenant siblings apparently absorbing his power and then that power being released with their (final) deaths? Did each remaining sibling gain their undead siblings' power as Patrick destroyed them, making Jeremiah the most powerful in the end?
---
(side note forgive me if some of this doesnt come across in game. We went through drastic cuts to get the game out the door. Multiplayer, 8 spells some levels and story all were hit)
The standing stones marked a nexus of mystical power. The Undying King was a godling attracked to the power and came to feed off the site. He was called the "King" because if you can imagine a side profile of the island beneath which the creature lay with the standing stones on top it would look similar to a crown on the creatures head. This also became confused with the myth of the sacrifice of the Celt mentioned below.
As he grew in power the people in the surrounding area realized this and came with a plan to stop it.
A Celtic King sacrificed his life to create a seal over the Undying "King" to keep it dormant and protect his people. That is who is lowered into the ground during one of the cutscenes.
Years later when the children did the ceremony they broke the Celt's seal and the Undying King was awakened. Jeremiah however cast a counter spell that recreated the seal in a unexpected way.
The children became a living seal. Each of them corrupted by the power they contained. However that same power sustained them even after death.
Not knowing how the power worked and realizing they might become more powerful if they were to eliminate their siblings the Covenants turned on one another. None of them had the power to truely destroy the other until Jeremiah met Patrick and had researched the Gel'ziabar Stone.
(Side note: the G stone potentially held many more powers. Good sequal fodder stuff. Why else would the Hounds be so drawn to it)
Now the definition of the corruption got redefined a couple of times and the back history as you can see gets a little complicated.
K: Who among the siblings was the most powerful, in your opinion?
---
Jeremiah was the most powerful at the end because he had absorbed the power of his siblings. Bethany was naturally powerful even in life.
K: Patrick's monologue at the end of the game mentioned other gateways guarded by other monasteries around the world. Does this mean that this whole scenario could happen again, or was there only one book (the one the siblings used at the stones)?

---
The book isnt nearly as important as the other nexi (plural??) of power. Each nexus allowed for a blurring of reality between different dimensions and amplified magic (only weakly noticeable in most of the modern world).
Supernatural creatures and those seeking to harnass its power (Keisinger) would be drawn to these areas.
The book allowed the children to break the seal created by the sacrifice of the Celt. Other nexus lay dormant or could have grown wild far from the sight of modern man.
The brotherhood of monks were watchers of any nexus they found. No one knows how to destroy a nexus so the brotherhood only hoped to oppose what ever might be drawn to or pass through a nexus.
K: And what did happen to that book?
---
Joseph took the book and hid it. The book was significant to the regional nexus near the Covenant family home but not as important to the global storyline.
K: What happened to the scythe after Patrick is thrown off the isle of Standing Stones at the end?
---
That was undecided.
K: If the Scythe of the Celt separates the soul from the body, why was Lizbeth's head still talking after being severed from her body? Why is she the only one of the siblings to do this?
---
Um that was our mistake. We thought it would be cool to have her talking and didnt really solidify the logic of the scythe until later. At that point no one wanted to remove the "cool" simply for the sake of consistancy.
To clear up an comment read in another post Lizbeth speaks both English and Mystical Chants. Thus why you might have only understood part of what she was saying.
K: The skeletal monks seem to be minions of Lizbeth, but on several occasions in the boss battle with her, I was able to get them to attack her. Is this a game glitch, or do the monks only guard the monastery and catacombs against everyone, even Lizbeth? They usually ignore her and go after Patrick.
---
The Howlers were Lizbeth's minions.
The Monks were an annoyance to her since she couldnt kill them. Need the Invoke spell for that.
The Monks simply haunt the catacombs and try to continue their job from life. They oppose the supernatural and are enemies to anything that wields or is infused with it.
Kinda didnt like Patrick for a couple reasons. One he simply used Magic but more importantly he killed em all in the first place. Indirectly of course but still you can understand how they might feel....
K: I think that's enough for now. Thanks.
---
NP. Kinda fun to revisit it all.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying

« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 08:52:10 PM by Katran » Logged
Katran
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 09:00:48 PM »

Quote
Athena
Posted - 22 April 2004 15:14 PST        

First off, I want to say thank you very much for taking the time to answer these questions. Smiley Undying is a great game, and we've spent a lot of time discussing it.
My questions are:
Who was Gwendolyn?
Unlike the rest of his siblings, Jeremiah's appearance didn't change after death. Is there a reason?
Why did Keisinger save Patrick at the end?
Why didn't Aaron's ghost immediately come to take revenge on Bethany?
Why did Keisinger kill Bethany? And while we're in that vein...can you tell us anything about the cut Scrye event between Keisinger and Bethany?
Thanks. Smiley


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katran
Posted - 22 April 2004 16:34 PST      

Thanks for answering all my questions! I have more for you, but I'll let you get to Athena's first. Her question about Jeremiah's appearance was one of mine also.
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Raevynlocks
Posted - 22 April 2004 16:39 PST      

Greetings, Roakana! First of all, let me say it is a real honor to be able to speak with one of the designers for one of the most amazing horror games of all time. Undying is an absolute classic. I never seem to get tired of playing it. The characters and story have held me in thrall for a very long time and no other game has been able to take its place in my heart. This game opened my mind and challenged my emotions--I laughed, cried, screamed, and broke out into a cold sweat with tingles of fear going up my spine! The first time I played it, I remember thinking that I had not enjoyed a game this much in what seemed like forever. I was heartbroken when it was finished. This wonderful community and all of the fantastic, creative people here have kept my love for the game going strong, and it means so much to all of us for you to take the time to answer some of our questions. Thank you!!
And wow, thank you so much for the fun little tidbits about the original titles of the game! How interesting!
I'd like to place a guess for the 'Strange Aeons' question...I'm not sure if I will be entirely correct. I know that it has to do with Lovecraft, namely the Cthulhu mythos. There is a story anthology for Call of Cthulhu called "Strange Aeons-Three Unusual Times and Places." Also, I know of a couple of other works with this title--namely a rather underground fanzine/comic that features illustrated versions of Lovecraft stories (Iíve only seen a couple of these though, being a rare comic buff Smiley) and a music compilation. But that's all I know about it.
The info that the game was originally going to be called 'Siog' was great! Oh, how I wish that could have been the final name! You are right; it would have been wonderfully fitting!
<<Hey we were artists and we did have our reason.>>
Indeed! Well said. Cheesy Iím glad to see other artists use the same excuse to justify all of their mischief. *grin*
Your answers to Katran's questions were wonderful. I had many of the same questions, especially regarding the power of the Undying King and exactly how it affected the siblings. I never even considered that the ring of Standing Stones could have represented a crown for the beast--how very interesting.
And I'm so glad that the awesome scene with Lizbeth's talking head wasn't cut from the game for the sake of consistency. That may be one of my favorite game scenes of all time. When Patrick slapped her, then smirked about it, I thought I was going to choke I was laughing so hard. Cheesy And I love how you pointed out that the Decayed Saints indirectly hated Patrick.
Here are some of my questions--thanks in advance for the answers. I will probably think of others later...
--Can you make an estimate as to how many story scenes were cut from the final game? I know there was supposed to be a scene that featured a confrontation between Bethany and Keisinger. Could you tell us about that scene? Were there any other interesting scenes that you remember that were cut?
--Since I'm mentioning scenes that were cut, is it true that there was originally going to be a scene with Lizbeth giving birth to Howlers?
--Did Aaron really manage to find his way into Eternal Autumn, or was his journal entry about it a vision or a dream? If he did find his way in, how did he get there? Did it have anything to do with his connection to Bethany because he is her twin, or did he just find his way in by snooping around in her business?
--Athena asked this question, but I'd like to ask a bit more about it, too--if Aaron wanted revenge on Bethany, why didn't he go after her? She is still making visits to the manor after his death. Or was it because his ghost was confined to the house and Bethany was in Eternal Autumn and he could not get to her?
--If Jeremiah, as a child, cast a spell to counter the original awakening spell, how did he know to do this, and why was this plot point not mentioned? Did he understand the nature of the spell well enough in order to do this, or did he do it by accident?
--Why did you change the names David and Clara to Aaron and Bethany? (I know this probably isnít anything significant, but I've always wondered, nonetheless.Smiley Did any of the other characters have a different name (other than Patrick, of course)?

Ok, that's all I can think of for now.
I'm so glad youíre here to answer all of our questions!
Wow...Iím really excited. Smiley

Quote
Roakana
Posted - 22 April 2004 17:22 PST      

Quick note: Some of these things are long ago so let me know if it sounds right. If not give me a little more context and Im sure I will remember.
A: Who was Gwendolyn?
---
If I remember correctly Gwendolyn was the woman who died at Keisinger's seance. Patrick was there to debunk K and instead was set up by the wizard and framed with her death.
A: Unlike the rest of his siblings, Jeremiah's appearance didn't change after death. Is there a reason?
---
Jeremiah was killed by the blast from the Shaman (who is the model for the original lead character Magnus Wolfrum). He basically covered up his wound with all his sick bed clothes.
To be honest the main reason we didnt deform J horribly is becuase we wanted him to be the sympathetic friend you were helping. The depth of betrayal and manipulation needed to be hidden. I guess we could have had him show up deformed at the end.
A: Why did Keisinger save Patrick at the end?
---
He had plans for Patrick. Keisinger "died" (as much as evil sorcerers do) in Oneiros but his spirit lived on and he is capable of manifesting. Much of K's plan was how to get back to reality and he needed Patrick to unlock more of the powers of the G stone and find a means of crossing back over permenantly.
A: Why didn't Aaron's ghost immediately come to take revenge on Bethany?
---
The siblings were tied to their surroundings. Aaron couldn't leave the house.
Similarly Bethany, Liabeth and Ambrose could make jaunts back to the house but wouldnt be able to stay long before withdrawing to their place of "death." Bethany had already been to Eternal Autumn and had power there.
Its easier to return to the family home than it was to leave it.
A: Why did Keisinger kill Bethany? And while we're in that vein...can you tell us anything about the cut Scrye event between Keisinger and Bethany?
Bethany lured K to Covenant House to try to steal knowledge from him. K was of course curious then greedy for the power he detected at the house.
The scrye scene actually was to reveal that Bethany attacked first trying to steal power from him. It went wrong and she lost.
However, sustained and empowereed by the curse of the Undying King she was able to return and defeat Keisinger and force him to retreat to Oneiros.
The scrye event was their second confrontation after Bethany returned from Eternal Autumn and drove K to Oneiros.
A: Thanks. Smiley
My pleasure
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Roakana
Posted - 22 April 2004 18:31 PST      

--Can you make an estimate as to how many story scenes were cut from the final game? I know there was supposed to be a scene that featured a confrontation between Bethany and Keisinger. Could you tell us about that scene? Were there any other interesting scenes that you remember that were cut?
---
I explained the Bethany/Keisigner confrontation above.
I dont remember specific other scenes that were cut. Some might come back to me as I answer these questions.
Many Many scenes were shaved down. Details removed and streamlined. Some of which I regret because the details supported the logic of the story and build stronger histories between characters. This is especially true of the rivalry between Keisigner and Patrick.
--Since I'm mentioning scenes that were cut, is it true that there was originally going to be a scene with Lizbeth giving birth to Howlers?
---
That was being batted around. Clive proposed it. Personally I like the mythos to be more chaotic. I always thought of the Howlers as an ancient supernatural species. As soon as Lizbeth is birthing them the fiction becomes smaller since the Howlers become insperably linked to her.
The idea of colonies of howlers throughout the world was more "natural" to me. The fact that Ghoulish Lizbeth getting along with these beasts seemed quite natural as well. More of a Master and Dog relationship than feral offspring.
--Did Aaron really manage to find his way into Eternal Autumn, or was his journal entry about it a vision or a dream? If he did find his way in, how did he get there? Did it have anything to do with his connection to Bethany because he is her twin, or did he just find his way in by snooping around in her business?
---
As an artist Aaron had dreams of Eternal Autumn even before his death. It could have been intertwined with Clara's initial discovery of the realm. Being twins that would be a easy leap of reason.
It wasnt fully defined but Aaron was always artisically sensitive and much of his art wasnt acts of creative fiction as much as his translation of visions and dreams he experienced.
--Athena asked this question, but I'd like to ask a bit more about it, too--if Aaron wanted revenge on Bethany, why didn't he go after her? She is still making visits to the manor after his death. Or was it because his ghost was confined to the house and Bethany was in Eternal Autumn and he could not get to her?
---
The siblings could visit the house.
Aaron of course having died within the house couldnt leave.
Ambrose died after jumping off the cliff to escape the law.
Lizbeth died in the Mausoleum area. Sick and buried but died there.
Clara retreated to Eternal Autumn.
Jeremiah died from his wounds at the family house.
--If Jeremiah, as a child, cast a spell to counter the original awakening spell, how did he know to do this, and why was this plot point not mentioned? Did he understand the nature of the spell well enough in order to do this, or did he do it by accident?
Pretty much just read the next paragraph. He didnt understand anything they did they just were fooling around at the stones.
He had gleaned enough knowledge from his father and his book in order to say the words ("most of em..." he he) but not to understand what they would do. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
--Why did you change the names David and Clara to Aaron and Bethany? (I know this probably isnít anything significant, but I've always wondered, nonetheless.Smiley Did any of the other characters have a different name (other than Patrick, of course)?
When Clive came on board he gave feedback on names. He wanted a couple names changed and didnt like Magnus as a character or a name at all.
I always thought it was weird that Lizbeth and Bethany are almost the same name. Also Aaron and Ambrose was a little alliteration, but hey it wasnt my name in the title of the game.
PS. Lizbeth was the name of my first girlfriend. Actually she was quite nice and didnt deserve having a ghoul named after her but I always thought it was a cool name. The artist wanted to her to have dark hair. That was where I drew the line.
confessional over.

Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying

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Katran
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 09:07:11 PM »

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Cabela
Posted - 23 April 2004 10:0 PST      

*We went through drastic cuts to get the game out the door. Multiplayer, 8 spells some levels and story all were hit)*
Are the cut levels and story still sitting on a harddrive somewhere, or have they been deleted and lost to the world?
If still on a harddrive somewhere, is there a chance they could "fall" into the hands of some fan(s) who could make them into another Undying map pak?

" Ever think that maybe your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others?"


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Roakana
Posted - 23 April 2004 11:2 PST      

No the cut levels arent even close to a finished state. They were fragments or cut early in their developement.
Originally there was supposed to be a Irish Village you would visit overrun by Trsanti. Thats the most major cut. Outside of that the other cuts were rooms in the mansion or parts of other areas of the world.
You were to originally travel seamlessly between sections of the world. Ie you would have to walk your way to the lighthouse rather than loading directly to it.
Often when parts of levels are cut it is for the best. Just like a director pruning a movie most of it is meant to be on the cutting room floor.
I regret losing the extra spells and multiplayer.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Tempest
Posted - 23 April 2004 15:51 PST      

Well...another thing about the names...
I noticed that all of the Covenant siblings were named after saints or biblical figures or in Bethany's case, cities. Was that planned or just coincidence?


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Roakana
Posted - 23 April 2004 17:16 PST      

think that is simply coincidence
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 23 April 2004 18:17 PST      

Just to clarify a couple of things:
"Jeremiah died from his wounds at the family house."
In the game he says that he "died that day...seared by the blast from that shaman's stone", while fighting in the war. In Patrick's opening monologue, he also mentions that Jeremiah had left the stone with him and led the rest of the troop on without Patrick. It seems in light of this information, it would have been very difficult for Jeremiah to get home, die, and then get back to the site of the battle where Patrick was recovering from his wounds from the stone.
Also:
"Lizbeth died in the Mausoleum area. Sick and buried but died there."
Was she accidentally buried alive? Or did she go there (or request to be taken there) right before her death?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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katran
Posted - 23 April 2004 18:21 PST      

I forgot another question:
In regards to mapping: At one point in the game you reach the Widow's Watch. You go up to the roof, and then down a stairway in back and come out in The Great Hall...which is in another wing of the house. In fact, it's on the opposite end of the house from the area that the Widow's Watch is located in. So...how does that work, exactly?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


Quote
ARM
Posted - 23 April 2004 22:27 PST      

First of all, thanks a big much for offering to answer questions Roakana! This is a fantastic opportunity for all of Undying's players (who happen by this website) and will help clear up a few of the debates that have fallen by the wayside (but are still fun to chew over;).
1st question:
Is/was there a solid (architectural 3-d) map of the Covenant Manor and surrounding buildings/areas (like the Monastery, the Pirate's Cove) or did some game maps happen to fall where they seemed best to fit? (I tried sketching how the interior of the Manor might fit in with the exterior one time on a whim but lacking a computer at the time ended up getting confused.)
Question 2:
Earlier, a scrye cut-scene between Bethany & Keisinger was mentioned. I'm probably missing a purely obvious thing (which Athena could probably beam me over the head with the answer for), but where is this in the game?
I'd also like to reiterate Katran's question (she beat me to it!): Earlier you mention that "Lizbeth died in the Mausoleum area. Sick and buried but died there."
Q - Was Lizbeth buried alive?
Oh, and as a side comment on the 'Irish Village' that was cut from the game, I could see that fitting in.
(One of the estates i visited while in Ireland had this clump of houses set aside from the Manor house where the servants lived (and nowdays is where their descendants - still caretakers of the estate - still live). (And it was a relatively small estate, too.)
Plus, I would've loved to have had free reign of the islands! That's one thing i kind of missed with the cutscenes, but I did like the Estate map that popped up during loading.
Last and most importantly:
Q - Was there a specific place in Ireland where the Covenant Estate was supposed to exist or was it mainly just modeled after fancy?
Thanks again for all your input!
~Morgan~


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Roakana
Posted - 24 April 2004 10:55 PST      

This will cover both Katran and ARM's questions.
Katran your right. THe story does mention Jeremiah dying on the field. My mistake. We tried to make the logic be consistent but not always did it work.
THe amount the game changed from how it began. Is pretty amazing. I wish i could show you some of the early, early docs but I dont even have them anymore.
Between how the team sculpted the game and how Clive influenced it once he was on board there were bound to be discrepancies.
Just to be clear Clive Barker became involved with the project a little over a year into it. He is an extremely creative person and it was a privledge to work with him. The original story and game design, however, were created by the team and myself. Clive helped to sharpen the focus and enrich it.
Yes we wanted Lizbeth's death to be pretty horrific so we did have her buried alive. This might not have come across in the game but it was discussed amongst the team.
As far as trying to Map the house you will run into some frustration. Unreal allows your to portal to strange locations that arent governed by physics (mostly seen in Oneiros but we used it elsewhere). In addition loads can happen anywhere to any place.
Partially this is a matter of convenience as we worked on the flow of the game. However part of it is intentional because we wanted the house to have that mazelike and non Euclidean feel. Think MC Escher.
In addition the exterior of the house does not directly reflect the interior of hte house. Once again, convenience but also we wanted to mess with your head so the house seemed more expansive.
That scrye scene didnt make it into the game ARM.
The location of the Covenant Estate was the West Coast of Ireland. It is more rustic and wild on that side of the country and the cliffs and wild ocean make for a great setting. I have many reference shots from the Dingle Peninsula, County Galway, the Burren, Cliffs of Moher (sp?) Aran Islands and Skellig Islands.
The Irish Village would have been fun. We wanted to petition Guinness so we could use all their classic advertising as textures in game. Not just as a marketing stunt, theres just no such thing as a village in Ireland without Guinness advertising.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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ARM
Posted - 24 April 2004 16:43 PST      

Yay! County Kerry & Galway! I was right! (see "The Game Place in Ireland" thread) And the cliffs on the Monastery Island looked exactly how Cliffs of Moher do - they both fall away thousands of feet to the ocean in a sheer drop. Scary! I knew they had to be what that part of the game was modeled after when I saw them!
Q - Did EA sponsor a trip for the development team to go to Ireland or had someone already been there? How in-depth was the research that went into the making of Undying?
And that bit about Lizbeth being buried alive... creepy. *shudders* I didn't realise that's what had happened, but then again, weren't there claw marks/scratch marks on the inside of her tomb? (I'm gonna have to go back and make a few edits to me script one of these days:)
Thank-you Roakana!
~Morgan~


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Roakana
Posted - 24 April 2004 17:19 PST      

I have been to Ireland twice. the second time just a year before we started Undying. It was very fresh in my mind and I had many pictures to support it.
Originally the game was to be set in England until I proposed a location switch.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 24 April 2004 17:41 PST      

I always assumed the scratch marks were from Lizbeth clawing her way out post-mortem, but it makes sense either way.
No wonder she was in such a bad mood. Wink
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Athena
Posted - 24 April 2004 18:46 PST        

Poor Lizbeth. *shudders* Having her buried alive is...very sad, and very creepy.
A couple of additional questions, if you don't mind:
Why was Joseph so interested in the Standing Stones? We've discussed the possibility before that something was feeding his interest--are we even close to correct, or was he just incredibly curious?
Likewise, we've wondered how the Covenant siblings managed to get out to the Standing Stones to read the ritual unaccompanied. Were they just poorly supervised, or was something helping them out?
*pulls this out of another thread* Someone was asking about the scrye event where you hear crying in the servants' quarters. Was that event originally supposed to lead to something? The sound of the crying is in Evaline's voiceover files in the editor, which makes me especially curious.
And I'd like to clarify one of my earlier questions. I asked why Aaron's ghost hadn't immediately targeted Bethany for revenge. We've read in the Journal of Jeremiah that several years passed between Aaron and Bethany's deaths, and that Bethany lived in the cottage for most of those years, but occasionally returned to the house. What I was wondering was, why didn't Aaron take advantage of those opportunities and attack her? Sorry I didn't make that clear the first time. Smiley
Thanks again!


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Roakana
Posted - 24 April 2004 19:54 PST      

Interest in the Standing Stones for Joseph is kinda like someone interested in following their family tree. Since the house and property had so long been in the family it was kinda natural. Back it up with a family curse (history of piracy, lunacy etc) and heightened level of magic activity and you have the carrot for Joseph curiousity.
Remember magic events had been happening for over 2000 years in the area. I dont remember how much got in the game but the Covenant Family was originally English who were gifted land by the English Monarchy during the Plantation of Ireland. The land they were given however was land no sane local irishman would want.
So they started off on a bad foot with the natives and as the family became corrupted by the passive influence of the Undying King they became feared and despised. Especially since many of them embraced their corruption to some level becoming pirates or simply boorish overlords of their surroundings.
This refers to the older generations of covenants and not just the family that appeared in the game.
Covenant kids were able to make it to the Standing Stones because their father was consumed with researching the occult, their mother was dead and the locals didnt care much for the Covenant family anyway. Of course you can never underestimate the hidden influence of the King and the latent corruption of the land.
Also there wouldnt be much of a game if they didnt make it out there.
The crying in the bedroom is just creepy. We figured it could be related to many of the crazy things that happened around the Manor. Nothing specific was intended by it. Kudos on your investigative prowess however.
Aaron was insane. However if anyone understood what the Undying King was and what was really going on, he's your guy. Most of the time he probably doesnt know if he is having a vision or seeing reality.
Between his time stuck in the house while still living (and drugged -- self administered) and then after his death and eaten by rats he has a hard time differenciating realities.
As far as him attacking Bethany he probably tried but she was a powerful enough witch in her own right to be able to ward him off. She definately knew how to create Ether Traps and could always retreat to Eternal Autumn if their is any problem.
Finally it probably took time to for Aaron to grow in power and learn how to Manifest as a Revenant. First he probably just threw knives and plates....
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying
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Katran
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 08:35:22 PM »

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Asc
Posted - 24 April 2004 21:52 PST      

You hear a female laugh when knives 'n things are thrown at you in the game(at least at one point... I think when you'd just gotten back from killing Lisebeth). Presumably that's not Aaron, so is there a story beind the other polteregest?


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katran
Posted - 25 April 2004 9:25 PST      

I always heard children laughing, though I haven't played it in awhile so my memory could be faulty.

"Remember magic events had been happening for over 2000 years in the area. I dont remember how much got in the game but the Covenant Family was originally English who were gifted land by the English Monarchy during the Plantation of Ireland. The land they were given however was land no sane local irishman would want.
So they started off on a bad foot with the natives and as the family became corrupted by the passive influence of the Undying King they became feared and despised. Especially since many of them embraced their corruption to some level becoming pirates or simply boorish overlords of their surroundings.
This refers to the older generations of covenants and not just the family that appeared in the game."
That answers my question about the disease and madness that Jeremiah said had run through his family for generations.

Did we already clarify as to whether Bethany created Eternal Autumn and its residents, or whether it was a realm she stumbled upon and took over?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Raevynlocks
Posted - 25 April 2004 14:32 PST      

I find it sad that Lizbeth was buried alive too, Athena. Was she buried because she was extremely sick and about to die? Or was it accidental?
Roakana, the way you've explained Lizbeth's relationship with the Howlers makes me appreciate that there was no scene with her giving birth to them. I like the idea of them all being supernatural beasts that have existed on their own for a long time (I recall Jeremiah mentioning that he has "heard of them for years"). I also like the idea of undead Lizbeth charming these vicious beasts who so readily accept her as one of their own. I suppose that appeals to the animal lover in me in some twisted way.
<<It wasnt fully defined but Aaron was always artisically sensitive and much of his art wasnt acts of creative fiction as much as his translation of visions and dreams he experienced.>>
Makes perfect sense to me, and thank you for explaining that. Some of my best work has come from my worst nightmares.
I love the explanation of the cut scrye scene between Bethany and Keisinger. I hadn't thought that Bethany actually attacked him first, and I didn't realize that she chased Keisinger to Oneiros after he killed her. Now some of her unused voiceovers make more sense. I was thinking that the line "you're not welcome here" was meant for Patrick, but it was meant for Keisinger. Oh, that Bethany. What a naughty girl she was.
Do you remember if there was going to be a scene with a conversation between Aaron and Bethany? In one of his voiceovers that was not used, he addresses her.
<<Aaron was insane. However if anyone understood what the Undying King was and what was really going on, he's your guy.>>
I could definitely tell in the game that this was true. No wonder he cried at the Standing Stones after the ritual, and no wonder he went completely crazy and tried to numb himself all the time. What a tremendous burden to have to bear!
<<As far as him attacking Bethany he probably tried but she was a powerful enough witch in her own right to be able to ward him off. She definately knew how to create Ether Traps and could always retreat to Eternal Autumn if their is any problem.>>
*waves to Athena* Ha ha ha! We always knew she had those Ether Traps on hand, didn't we? Cheesy
The info about the older generations of Covenants was great. Thanks a lot for that backstory!
<<Katran: That answers my question about the disease and madness that Jeremiah said had run through his family for generations.>>
And mine, too! I'd always wondered about that. I suppose this information will prove useful if you ever write that fanfic about some of the earlier Covenants, eh Katran?
<<Katran: I always heard children laughing, though I haven't played it in awhile so my memory could be faulty.>>
Yes, it sounds like several children to me, and not necessarily a female child. I've always been curious about these poltergeists, too. Any story behind them, Roakana?
And yes, I've wondered about Bethany and Eternal Autumn. Given all the facts about her nature, I've always guessed it was a realm she discovered and just managed to take over.
--------------------
"Your ''reality'', sir, is full of lies and balderdash, and I am delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever!" --Baron Munchausen
I ate my pillow because it looked like a marshmallow.


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ARM
Posted - 25 April 2004 15:3 PST      

"I always heard children laughing, though I haven't played it in awhile so my memory could be faulty."
I'm pretty sure it was children. I always assumed it was Aaron, or an earlier aspect of Aaron, in that one way he compensated with his madness was by regressing to a point - particularly when dealing with confrontation since he seemed to be uncomfortable with being assertive.
Also on Eternal Autumn, what was with Aaron picking through that book in the library that you have to shoot down? It made mention of the dreamlike realm, but what of it? Was he trying to prompt Galloway or infiltrate it himself? Is EA a 'storybook land' that Bethany made real or did it always exist & she just took over?
p.s. - you forgot to mention the puppet theatre w/the minature butler & cook. That's one of my favourite easter eggs, aside from the "assall" command!
And thank you for prompting the location switch! England, I'm sure, would've been a good place to set the game but Eire has that 'old world' feel of a place so close yet somewhat removed from civilisation.
~Morgan~


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ARM
Posted - 25 April 2004 15:9 PST      

Ooh - 'nother question:
(sorry! trying to keep these short)
Q - What's the WWI connection of the Trsanti w/the Somme-like trench warfare as seen in the beginning cinematic? One of the complications I got when writing my first script was that there was no trench warfare/activity in Africa (Galloway & Jeremiah were stationed in Africa, right?) and the 'big push' that Galloway's a part of seems somewhat reminiscent of the 'big push' at the Somme when the Ulster division knocked out the German lines.
(damn! that wasn't short at all.)
~Morgan~


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Roakana
Posted - 25 April 2004 17:23 PST      

Q - What's the WWI connection of the Trsanti w/the Somme-like trench warfare as seen in the beginning cinematic? One of the complications I got when writing my first script was that there was no trench warfare/activity in Africa (Galloway & Jeremiah were stationed in Africa, right?) and the 'big push' that Galloway's a part of seems somewhat reminiscent of the 'big push' at the Somme when the Ulster division knocked out the German lines.
---
No they were in Europe. I kinda imagined it in Turkey but we didnt have a specific location. The Trsanti are a Gypsy like people so they can be found almost anywhere on the fringe of society. Im not claiming any historical integrity to this choice.
We wanted to take advantage of the WW1 and the turn of the century and all the chaos that was happening at that time. THe world was in transition and between the War and the Epidemic Flu that followed many many people died leaving restless souls. Combine that with the number of discoveries (King Tut, scientific advances, Occult reemergence with Aleister Crowley) and it was a ripe time for the reawakening of the supernatural world.
Q: Also on Eternal Autumn, what was with Aaron picking through that book in the library that you have to shoot down? It made mention of the dreamlike realm, but what of it? Was he trying to prompt Galloway or infiltrate it himself? Is EA a 'storybook land' that Bethany made real or did it always exist & she just took over?
---
I really like the idea of Bethany creating her "fantasy land" into a reality. However the way it was originally conceived she discovered an already existing world.
We tossed around ideas that the Undying King had been driven from Eternal Autumn and that is how it ended up in our reality but that was more of a musing than any "fictional" truth. The chance of a portal remaining open after the ejection would be explain how Bethany might have found it. Kinda neat idea.
Q: I find it sad that Lizbeth was buried alive too, Athena. Was she buried because she was extremely sick and about to die? Or was it accidental?
---
Its was pretty much accidental. She was ill and slipped into a deathlike state. She was buried and died.
Q: Do you remember if there was going to be a scene with a conversation between Aaron and Bethany? In one of his voiceovers that was not used, he addresses her.
---
I do think we were going to have some sort of confrontation between them. However Aaron could just as easily been argueing/berrating a wall. He didnt really need to have his target in the room for one of his rants.
Q: I'm pretty sure it was children. I always assumed it was Aaron, or an earlier aspect of Aaron, in that one way he compensated with his madness was by regressing to a point - particularly when dealing with confrontation since he seemed to be uncomfortable with being assertive.
---
The knives and plates etc are all Aaron. The sounds were chosen mostly for creepieness. I do like your analysis and it does fit quite well with Aaron's psyche.
---
*** More Info ***
Weapons and Spells
we came up with a pretty inovative way of selecting weapons and spells using a series of wheels. However since it was pretty unique many people had a problem adapting to them.
If you think of yourself always at the middle of the wheel you could move very quickly and select a new weapon or spell.
In addition you could right click on a selection and set it as one of 2 favorites on the wheel. then just by tapping on the select button you could toggle back and forth between those favorites without even entering the wheel. Admittedly this could have been polished a bit more but it gave the player alot of control if they embraced the system.
SO if you had your weapon wheel up you could right click on the pistol and right click again on the speargun and be able to toggle back and forth between those two weapons without entering the wheel. If you right clicked a third time it would erase the oldest favorite and set the new weapon as one of your 2 favorites.
3 wheels -- we orginally wanted 3 wheels. a weapon wheel, offensive spells and defensive/misc spells. Each wheel would have a committed selection button as well as its own fire button. Weapons -- left mouse, Off spells -- right mouse, Def/Misc -- Keypad_Ins button. (If playing on the arrow keys). Once again some felt this was a little complicated but it had some really nice features.
Once we combined the 2 spells wheels we came to realize that people were often not willing to give up an offensive spell (skull storm, ectoplasm) for the sometimes use spells like shield or haste etc. By having that third wheel and 3rd fire button the player could keep his offensive options and still have other spells readily available on the 3rd wheel. It also would have allowed us to have more spells that were complimentary to each other without the player to constantly be switching. This was especially nice with spell like scrye.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 25 April 2004 17:25 PST      

I thought they were fighting in Europe, but maybe I just assumed that. I thought I remembered Patrick mentioning France in his opening monologue, but maybe I'm just getting confused with something else.
One of these days I am gonna get around to writing that fanfic prequel, although in light of some of what we've learned here, I'm either going to have to change it or we'll just have to ignore a couple of details Roakana has given us (and no, I won't say which ones).
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Tempest
Posted - 25 April 2004 22:8 PST      

This is a really random thing considering all the talk about WW1...how old approximately was Ambrose when he was expelled? I always thought he was about 14-15 ...
And another thing...with Beth and Keisinger, was it just that she was the student and he the master kind of thing?
I had to get that one out... i inferred that in reading Jeremiah's journal, Jerry states that Bethany would use magicians until she got what she wanted.
*takes deep breath*
Ok...i'm good


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Roakana
Posted - 25 April 2004 22:31 PST      

France was mentioned as one of the places Patrick was hanging out after WW1. He didnt want to return to Ireland since he had been framed by Keisinger and he was feeling a little lost after the war. France and the ex pat scene was a good placed to be lost and possibly pick up some odd jobs.
I figured Ambrose was in his early teens. Dont think It was ever specific what age.
Bethany would play naive to lure magicians and occult masters into teaching her and then would glean knowledge from them. She would steal things if she had the opportunity and had no regrets about killing them if necessary. Pretty much a black widow...
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 26 April 2004 15:17 PST      

"This is a really random thing considering all the talk about WW1...how old approximately was Ambrose when he was expelled? I always thought he was about 14-15 ..."
One of my biggest questions regards the ages of the Covenant siblings. As a family historian, I have sort of a fascination with such things, and we did have some difficulty pinning down the various ages of the Covenants.
According to the Journal of Jeremiah, Lizbeth would have been 24 years old Feb. 4, 1919, which means she was born Feb. 4, 1895.
We know that she was the youngest, and that Jeremiah was the eldest. In one of Joseph's journal entries, he mentions that Jeremiah was 12 years old when he took an interest in the occult books. I think we are meant to assume that Jeremiah was 12 when he took his siblings out to the stones, correct? And that occured right around the early 1900's, probably between 1900 and 1903, right? So, going strictly by this info, we can place Jeremiah's birthdate anywhere from 1888-1891.
For Ambrose, we have his own journal entries, one of which is dated 1912, if I remember correctly, and says that he got the journal for his 18th birthday. If his 18th birthday was in 1912, that would make him one year older than Lizbeth, being born in 1894. However, I have some misgivings about Ambrose's journal entries, as one dated 1916 says that he jumped off the cliff that year, which contradicts what the Journal of Jeremiah and the butler in the game say.
And we've found nothing to indicate how old Aaron and Bethany were supposed to be. My guess has always been that the birth order was Jeremiah, Bethany, Aaron, Ambrose, and Lizbeth, but that's strictly a guess based on my feelings about each sibling.
So, can you humor me and clarify their ages?

----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python
Edited by - katran on 4/26/2004 3:19:04 PM
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Katran
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 08:39:42 PM »

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ARM
Posted - 27 April 2004 15:44 PST      

Drat, Katran beat me to my next question.
Ok, what was the Covenant family geneology? I'm pretty sure it went "Jeremiah - Ambrose - Beth & Aaron - Lizbeth" but used what Katran feels is the right order with something I'm writing. Did you have relative dates/years when the siblings were born or was it mainly put together by piecemeal?
~Morgan~


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Athena
Posted - 27 April 2004 17:18 PST        

As I recall, Ambrose wrote in his journal that Joseph gave it to him for his 18th birthday, as he had for Ambrose's older "siblings". So I always assumed the birth order was Jeremiah--Aaron and Bethany--Ambrose--Lizbeth.


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Roakana
Posted - 28 April 2004 10:47 PST      

Athena has it right. While I did at one point chart all of their birthdates, I dont have that info anymore.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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the OTHER guy
Posted - 28 April 2004 19:11 PST      

Well, isn't this special? I humbly thank you, Roakana, for boldly reaching out and scratching that burning itch of curiosity within us all. If it is not too bold to do so, might I pose a "few" questions for you to answer?
1. For what purpose were the Standing Stones built? Why?
2. What is the sigil carved into each stone? Why?
3. What is their purpose? (Perhaps to focus magic?)
4. Who built the Standing Stones?
5. Where was the Gel'ziabar stone found originally? (Not where Patrick found it.)
6. What was it meant to be used for?
7. What is Gel'ziabar supposed to mean?
8. Why *exactly* did Jeremiah want the Gel'ziabar stone?
9. Why didn't the Hound of Gel'ziabar kill Patrick the first time? (Or did it?)
10. Why did it attack in Oneiros?
11. Why do you see it in the beginning chasing howlers?
12. Why is the Hound linked to the Gel'ziabar stone?
13. Is the hound friend or foe?
14. How old is Kiesenger?
15. If he was under 2500 years old, how was he at the burial of the Celtic Warrior?
16. More importantly, *why* was he there, if only to usurp the throne of the Undying King in 1926?
17. Or was it that he was guarding the portal to the King?
18. What were the missing spells? I am aware of Mindshatter, Powerword, and Ward; I feel I have an idea of Phase, Firefly and Incantation of Silence, but what of Shalas (Shala's?) Vortex, and the one that I have absolutely no clue about?
19. (As pointed out before in another post) if the Scythe is evil, then why wasn't Patrick affected by it? Or was he?
Just so you know, I had more to ask, but I restrained myself.
*Looks at list*
Gee, I 'ope I di'nt scare 'im off, now would I? Whot'd be th' fun in tha'? Then 'oo'd we bother wi' all these nigglin' quaestions?


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katran
Posted - 29 April 2004 15:9 PST      

Add to that list:
How did the scythe come to exist? Why was it buried with the Celtic warrior? Why did it have such a negative effect on the monks? Was that Keisinger at the burial of the warrior, or was it not meant to look like him?
And more:
Why was Evaline's body singing in the catacombs? Had she always been animated, and Lizbeth just found her, or did Lizbeth somehow reanimate her?
Does Ambrose's name have anything to do with ambrosia, the "food of the gods", which would give immortality to mortals?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Doppiapunta
Posted - 6 May 2004 13:20 PST        

Welcome Roakana!
It's very cool to know an Undying team Developer.
Well it's very nice to kow more things avbout this great game.
You asked us what is the band that created a song called " Strange Aeons"!
Well I think that this group is ENTOMBED that published a song called " strange Aeons" in their old album called "CLANDESTINE"!
Am i the winner of the two trivia point you promised? Wink
Well i hope to read here other your explanations and secrets about my favourite game!
See you soon
Doppiapunta


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jasbales
Posted - 6 May 2004 22:12 PST      

I just stumbled across this thread. I have read the first couple posts and don't know if anyone else has answered, but I have read ye booke. I know ye wards. In Dee's Englished version the offending couplet reads:
"That is not dead which may eternal lie.
And with strange ∆ons even death may die."
-Necronomicon
If someone else already answered then, sorry for the repeat. I don't have time to read all the posts right now, but will probably come back tomorrow night and catch up. Can't wait.
Oh, H.P. Lovecraft probably made up the qoute, not John Dee.
Edited by - jasbales on 5/6/2004 10:54:29 PM


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Roakana
Posted - 7 May 2004 11:47 PST      

Alright I have been absent a couple of days. I will run through some answers.
Jasbales does win the Trivia question. HP Lovecraft was the original inventor of the Necronomicon. Because it became so popular from his stories other authors began referencing it in their stories. Eventually it was created into its own book.
Clive pointed out something when he first got involved with the project. He noted that Undying was a curious fusion of Romantic Horror (House of Usher etc etc) and Lovecraftian Horror. While I hadn't realized it at that point he was dead on.
Dopp many musicians have quoted Lovecraft. Especially Metallica but it sounds like Entombed also has a place in their hearts for him. Still one of my favorite horror writers.
Sidenote: if you havent checked out the Game of Thrones series by George RR Martin it is well worth your while. Not horror but some damn well written fantasy.
Question time....
1. For what purpose were the Standing Stones built? Why?
Standing stones we all part of the seal that kept the Undying King from waking.
2. What is the sigil carved into each stone? Why?
They are magical symbols and once again contribute to the seal. Realize the King was feeding off the powernode at the location of the standing stones.

3. What is their purpose? (Perhaps to focus magic?)
The stones used that node against him to seal him into a sleep state. THe final piece being the sacrafice of a human life to activate the spell. Thus the Celtic King's burial.
4. Who built the Standing Stones?
THe Celts long ago.
5. Where was the Gel'ziabar stone found originally? (Not where Patrick found it.)
Never defined. It is a mystical artifact that has a habit of being found and lost over the years "one stone to find them all..." yada yada.
6. What was it meant to be used for?
It is a magical focus. Almost a transportable power node. It does have more power than Patrick or Jeremiah ever unlocked.
The stone amplifies magic naturally and allows the user to be more intuned with the mystical world.
7. What is Gel'ziabar supposed to mean?
Absolutely made up. Words with random apostophes just sound mystical dont they. I think Gel'ziabar sounds suggestive of a lost language.
8. Why *exactly* did Jeremiah want the Gel'ziabar stone?
See my description above of the stones powers. He knew the family curse was corruptive he hoped the stone might give him insight into how to control it.
9. Why didn't the Hound of Gel'ziabar kill Patrick the first time? (Or did it?)
The Hounds attacks those that abuse the power of the stone. In the first meeting Ambrose was the one abusing the power of the stone. Hence the reason he was attacked by the Hound. Patrick was just a nuscience to a monster with a bad disposition and got knocked the **** out.
10. Why did it attack in Oneiros?
By that time Patrick had been in possession of the stone long enough to draw the Hounds attention.

11. Why do you see it in the beginning chasing howlers?
The Hounds are extradimensional creatures. Their ability to enter this world are closely tied to the G stone. The stone had been on the Covenant grounds for awhile and they could warp in at times because of it.
12. Why is the Hound linked to the Gel'ziabar stone?
At some point the stone was used to open a rift between this world and the Hounds dimension. The rift never fully closed. The more the stone is used the more the Hounds are attracked to it.
13. Is the hound friend or foe?
Hounds arent really good or evil. They are a foe in the same way a hungry Tiger or a rattlesnake is simply unhealthy to be around.
14. How old is Kiesenger?
Very. This wasnt ever specific. To me he was a couple hundred years old but choices throughout the project started to blur that line.
Perhaps he could time travel and visit these times or perhaps their is and ancestral line and legacy that the Keisinger's have carried.
15. If he was under 2500 years old, how was he at the burial of the Celtic Warrior?
see above
16. More importantly, *why* was he there, if only to usurp the throne of the Undying King in 1926?
K is very hungry for power. He will search it out and seek to claim it whereever he can. Even if he knows of the existance of the power nodes he doesnt necessarily know how to claim them.
17. Or was it that he was guarding the portal to the King?
nope wanted to steal power. Didnt know what he was getting into.
18. What were the missing spells? I am aware of Mindshatter, Powerword, and Ward; I feel I have an idea of Phase, Firefly and Incantation of Silence, but what of Shalas (Shala's?) Vortex, and the one that I have absolutely no clue about?
---
Mindshatter -- disorients -- this is what the Sil Lith use on Patrick in Oneiros
Powerword -- scribes a glowing rune in the air. Anyone in Line of Sight take persistent damage from it. Very powerful but costly to mana.
Ward -- organic mines.
Firefly -- accuracy modifier (allows magic spells to seek. Makes opponents glow. Especially good in DM when people would hide in dark shadows.
Shala's Vortex -- originally defenses were broken into physical attacks (shield defense) and magic attacks (shala's defense)
Phoenix (turned into Phoenix eggs but it was a spell) -- Self guided firey bird.
Phase -- invisibility
Incantation of Silence -- Mutes sound.
Each of these would be affected by amplifiers making them more useful.
For Example: Phase would would make you translucent but not invis. Second level would make you invis standing still translucent when moving. 3rd invis walking. 4th invis running but trans firing weapons. 5th Invis at all times.
Some of these spells had more use for Multiplayer and we didnt justify in the single player game as much. Once Multiplayer was cut so was some of the necessity of spells.
BTW dynamite used to be a weapon rather than and inventory item. That was the slot Phoenix Eggs took.
19. (As pointed out before in another post) if the Scythe is evil, then why wasn't Patrick affected by it? Or was he?
---
Originally the weapon was supposed to have blood thirst that would pull you toward your oppoenent in an uncontrollable way. You'll notice the alt mode still has a little of this functionality. It never quite worked right so we didn't force the issue.
The weapon wasnt really evil but the Monks who opposed all things "unholy" sought to destroy it. It is a tool and the weapon of the Celtic King before he died.
---
Q: How did the scythe come to exist? Why was it buried with the Celtic warrior? Why did it have such a negative effect on the monks? Was that Keisinger at the burial of the warrior, or was it not meant to look like him?
---
The monks were corrupted by the presence of the King. They misplaced the blame on the scythe.
The scythe was the weapon of the Celtic King. When he sacrificed his life to create the seal over the Undying King the weapon was his legacy and symbol. Similar to Excalibur reprsenting King Arthur.
Um this is like a question in multiple parts you cheated on your numbering.
Keisinger or maybe an ancestor (i like that better) was at the burial. This was an inspiration of one of the artists on the project and wasnt driven by consistency as much as cool factor.
---
Q: Why was Evaline's body singing in the catacombs? Had she always been animated, and Lizbeth just found her, or did Lizbeth somehow reanimate her?
----
Lizbeth reanimated her. Not living just listlessly mumbling old nursery rhymes etc. Since Lizbeth never knew her Mother she had just a little obsession with her.
---
Q: Does Ambrose's name have anything to do with ambrosia, the "food of the gods", which would give immortality to mortals?
---
Love this one. While I would like to claim we were that deep I cannot. I just grabbed the name from Ambrose Bierce. We wanted names that sounded older and uncoventional.
---
whew.
It was fun answering those. Thanks for the carpal guys.
Ro'

Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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katran
Posted - 7 May 2004 15:15 PST      

"It was fun answering those. Thanks for the carpal guys."
LOL, sorry about that, but thanks so much for answering all our questions! I'm sure those won't be the last.
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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jasbales
Posted - 9 May 2004 22:6 PST      

OK, so I've finally made it backto the forum. It seems I don't have nearly as much free time as I used to. I got the two trivia points! I told mom that reading all night every night would pay off some day.
I'm not going to read through the rest of the posts in this thread right now since I just re-installed Undying after last week's laptop tragedy and I still need to play the game all the way through. But I will come back to the thread some time after I have finished the game. Thanks in advance for all the insight and info.


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Wyrframe
Posted - 20 May 2004 22:40 PST      

I am wondering if anyone in this thread has a suggestion for a game that is like Undying? I have played Alice, Undying, and ThiefÖ Considering these among my favorite is there anything out there akin to undying? I am looking forward to Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. It is based off of H.P. Lovecrafts work. I came across Undying by accident, and am wondering if maybe I have passed up some other games along this line. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,


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katran
Posted - 21 May 2004 1:1 PST      

Knights of the Temple looks pretty cool, but it doesn't seem to be available in the U.S.
I also highly recommend the mappacks on the Standing Stones website if you haven't already done so. Some are small, some are large continuations of the Undying story, and all are created by posters on these boards (though some no longer seem to be among us; perhaps the howlers got them).
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Wynne
Posted - 21 May 2004 3:31 PST      

I actually think Siog is a beautiful name. Smiley I've had trouble with people mispronouncing my name for my whole life, but I think it's worth it to have an unusual appellation despite the potential for that.
The Strange Aeons thing I got immediately, being a mythos fan. Smiley Thank you for answering all these questions! I'm finding the commentary fascinating.
Wyrframe, you're in luck if you have a decent budget right now! Did you hear about Thief 3? (Deadly Shadows is the subtitle.) It's coming out on the 26th--just five days to go. *grins* I'm psyched. You can preorder at EBgames.com for like $39.99, which isn't bad for a PC game these days.
I have a friend who was flown down to take a look at the game because he's been running a Thief site since the first game, and he really loved what he saw. He said it DRIPPED with atmosphere, and the last game I can recall playing that did that was--you guessed it, Undying. Smiley One huge spoiler picture I saw makes me think the game will definitely have a similar flavor and mystique.
Of course I haven't played it myself yet, and there are a few unfortunate features changes due to the new engine (wall-climbing instead of rope arrows, for instance, and some people complain that you can play in third person as well as first), but there are some awesome additions like real-time shadows, and far more intelligent guards who on expert difficulty will notice if their buddy is missing from his patrol route. Pretty cool!

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dr_coma
Posted - 21 May 2004 9:16 PST      

Well, I've said this before and I will say it again: I am downright giddy to play STALKER. It does not appear to be anything like Undying as far as gameplay goes (other than being a shooter), but the ambience inspires dread. I just finished watching the footage from E3 of the player fighting a mutant at night, and I have to say it gave me the creeps; I experienced the same kind of shiver when I heard my first howler baying in the distance. And the argument can be made that the ruined sarcophagus of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor is much like the Covenant estate in Undying, in that it is a nexus of unearthly phenomena. Even more unsettling is the actual necropolis of Pripyat, the city that was left for dead after the Chernobyl catastrophe. From the screenshots and footage I have seen, I suspect the developers will make this one of the scariest locations in the game, especially at night while it is raining, and the air is filled with unnatural sounds and the menace of unspeakable horrors. Ah, dread.
-----------------------------
ďFor who would dare to assert that eternal happiness can compensate for a single momentís human suffering?Ē Ė Albert Camus.
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Katran
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 08:42:51 PM »

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Devillo The Worm
Posted - 21 May 2004 10:26 PST      

Well, I dunno about Stalker or those other games, but I'll have to check them out if the impossible happens and some free time pays a visit.
Thanks to the great and powerful Roakana for opening this thread and making a game which is as equally cerebral as it is damn right terrorfying.
Now, Ive played a few of the 3rd party maps with the missing spells Mindshatter and Ward, and I also picked up one or two items left out of the game such as the very handy lantern 9without which you spend the entire game walking into walls and missing doors etc) but some of the other tools confue me, namely the wizards eye which was seen in the small cutscene where Bethany transports patric to the Eternal Autumn 9in what everyone says is a bot of a cop out, but you had a deadline to meet, so nobodys gonna hold it against you.
Theres also another thread going on about a fan made sequal being created byy various people here, and I thought it only made sence to ask your expertise. I loved the way the Ward mines dragged you towards them and caused all kinds of havok, plus the amusing writhings of Trsanti and Howlers under Mindshatter. I do however wonder about just what the hell Wizards Eye was for in the first place, and also this scroll of silence or something. Are we to assume this was a way to combat the unused 'Minstrels.' Now theres one question which I think alot of people would like to know 9especially if they make it into the sequal) what exactly the minstrels were capable of, the idea behind them and did anything bar that one drawing on the officvial site survive.
Thanks very much for your time, and all the best with whatever your up to at the moment. Hail and all that Jazz etc.


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Roakana
Posted - 21 May 2004 10:34 PST      

If you cross over to console there are some good games there. Resident Evil of course has a long history, Code Veronica was great. Recently Eternal Darkness has caught my attention. They do some really really cool things to mess with your mind. Many people like Silent Hill but I am not such a fan.
You could pick up a gamecube for pretty cheap right now and be able to check out ED and RE series.
Our original pitch of Undying was Res Evil crossed with Half Life. Thats basically buzz words for execs but they are 2 great games to draw upon.
Most people (in movies, books, and video games) confuse Horror with gratuitous blood (ie Slasher flix) but when it is moody and tension filled its the best.
Still think the best horror film ever made was the original Alien.
Ro'
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Roakana
Posted - 21 May 2004 10:45 PST      

Wizard Eye was an inventory item you could drop in a postion. From then on you could flip over to it and look around at that area through the eye. Pretty much a surveilance camera. It was cool for multiplayer but has much less use in Single. Thump. Thats the sound of the axe falling.
Scroll of silence was just the silence spell mentioned in earlier posts.
BTW multiplayer was gonna be alot closer to Rocket Arena. Everyone would start with all weapons and spells. It was gonna be about what spells you chose to Amplify and how players intelligently countered other people's tactics.
Ro'
Follow up comment about Lightning.
funny thing is lightning never was as powerful as it should have been but it was great versus crowds because it chained between targets at higher amp levels.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Wyrframe
Posted - 21 May 2004 11:39 PST      

Thanks all for the quick replies. I am familiar with S.A.L.K.E.R and am watching for it. I am eagerly anticipating Thief 3, Doom 3, and the new Vampire Masquerade game coming out. Undying completely missed my radar and I have only had the pleasure of playing it for the past couple of years. Iím just wonder if anything else has escaped my radar. I like the ambience of resident evil, but donít have the patients for the small inventory, and save points. I find myself retracing my footsteps over and over. Thanks again and a special thanks to you Roakana, this has been the most interesting thread I have read in a good many years. Are you currently working on, or thinking about working on anything new we should be looking out for?
Thanks,


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tkip
Posted - 21 May 2004 12:24 PST      

Some questions.
Is the Undying King unique in that *it* is one LONE enity or are there others like it, out there?
Since the souls of the monks are still around haunting, what became of the souls of the siblings upon their final death?
It really seems that the kids were possessed and even seemed to be aware of this, to a certain extent. Can it be argued then that they were never really in *control* of their actions?
Thanks...........


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katran
Posted - 21 May 2004 13:56 PST      

"Still think the best horror film ever made was the original Alien."
I agree wholeheartedly, which is one of the reasons I love Undying. It's the only game I've ever played that gave me nightmares, and I know it was because of the atmosphere and suspense.
As for the question in the last post regarding the Covenant Siblings: they sort of did remain to haunt the grounds, in their undead forms. Due to the nature of the way you have to kill them (I'm trying to avoid a spoiler for those still playing the game), their soul is separated from their body. That is the only thing that will finally "kill" them for good. The monks are different in that they were not cursed in the way that the siblings were. They remain to haunt and protect the monastery, but not for the same reason the siblings remained after their deaths.
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Roakana
Posted - 21 May 2004 13:58 PST      

Not a horror game but I am currently working on Star Wars Battlefront.
I do have another idea for a horror game I would like to do but that is a pipe dream atm.
The siblings were to some degree concious of their curse (David the most aware) but they all fought to control it or manipulate it to their benefit.
The King is just one of a number of entities out there. The are magic eating and magic manipulating so they dont really have one solid identity.
The souls of the siblings were pretty much destroyed or eaten by the king. One idea we were originally doing but got cut had them possessed by lesser servitors of the king. The Minstrels mentioned earlier by Devillo. Each of the children were housing a minstrel. If all 5 minstrels were released they were what awakened the king. I like the idea but it never made it in.
Ro'
BTW City of Heroes rocks.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Devillo The Worm
Posted - 22 May 2004 10:10 PST      

AHA! So Thats what the Minstrels were for! You know, that sounded like a really cool idea indeed! Its a pity it was cut, but still, a very interesting idea. Minstrels herelding the dawn for the Undying King to Arise refreshed and Hungry. Hmnnn, it does show a rather poetic and interesting vein in the nature of the curse and the King, but I suppose theres always that war between creativity and getting the work on time to pay the bills.
Personally, I just looked at the Minstrels sketch and was instantly hooked on the possibilities of the character. One idea I had was that their melodic (yet unusual) song sent Patric into an etheral dreamlike state, similar to a more subtle Mindshatter, and while all this was distracting him, the Minstrel would circle around him, sweet fragrant smoke emitted from two of its pipes, smoke which is actually poision. The Minstrel would be very dangerous because once it sang, the Mindshatter effect began and it would be hard to kill the creature and stop the poisionous gas. The Scroll of Silence would be the only way to end the music and then Patric could kill the creature by destroying the stone/orb on its uppermost body. However, it does float around a fair distance away and if all else fails, its got two sets of Ckaws which can more than make up for its lack of song.
My mind works in strange ways.
I sooooo want to get the Minstrels and the unused spells in the Fanmade sequal. Ive seen some very good things of Star Wars Battlegrounds, I hope your enjoying the work and you get as much respect and credit for it as you deserve for Undying (If not more, lol).
Thanks for tolerating my verbal Diohreah and warping your much treasured ideas and creations. Hail.


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Devillo The Worm
Posted - 22 May 2004 10:20 PST      

Also (sorry for wittering on like this) The multiplayer version of the game is something we all miss, but those are the breaks Im sorry to say. Ive been looking at the Onerios 'amplitheater' section, and I got inspired by that to begin work on designing a large 'roman colleseum' style Arena, where Patric was stuck with all sorts of nasty creatures and objects trying to kill him (My favourites were a large wooden tower in the middle where Jemaas would fire Spears at him like snipers, crates which would be dropped from above which would shatter and release some very angry Howlers, and a pit surrounding the theater jam packed with Sleed. And the only way to survive the never ending barrage of enemies and threats of death would be to get to the top of the central tower and.... I think I will leave that for now. *smirk*
I can imagine how cool the Multiplayer enviroments would be. A tower with unlimited ammo and amplifiers all over the place, with several players teamed together under seige from infinetly re-spawning Howlers and other horrors. An Undying Seige senario. Ooooh, if only!
Thanks again for all the information. Its impossible to express how much we appreciate it.
*bow*


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Anthony
Posted - 4 June 2004 11:23 PST      

It's so awesome that actually someone working on Undying is answering on Our questions!!!
My first question - why when you return from Oneiros when you open the door - you are in the mansion? Aren't you supposed to be on the roof or whatever?
Second question - where can you find the easter eggs??? I searched every door!! I actually ended in the end with 101 health packs =))
Third question - why did Jerimayah(sorry for mistakes) give the stone to Patrick and didn't just still it, when he was sleeping???
And when did Jerimayah actually understood that the stone is a very unique and a powerful artifact? I'm asking this questions because i am just confused of that fact that Jerimayah didn't still the stone or kill Patrick. Of course there is the fact that he wanted Patrick to kill his siblings, but he could've done it with the stone by himself.
In the catacombs of the monastery in one of the rooms there was some writing with how i uderstood mirror image - so u can read it only if you have a mirror, or is it just some old language?
thank you very much for yout time, for answering for all those questions.
of coz i do wish u'll have some time to answer on my questions.
by the way - i really apreciate your work on Undying - Undying rulezzzz!!! =)))


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Roakana
Posted - 4 June 2004 14:4 PST      


My first question - why when you return from Oneiros when you open the door - you are in the mansion? Aren't you supposed to be on the roof or whatever?
The flow and logic of how Oneiros has linked into the real world is very non euclidean. However the part of the house you do spawn back in at the end of the Oneiros section is at the base of the Tower inside the house. Back when the exploration of the house was going to be more freeformed this would have been more apparent. When we changed it this became pretty obscure.
Second question - where can you find the easter eggs??? I searched every door!! I actually ended in the end with 101 health packs =))
Im hoping someone somewhere has outlined where the easter eggs are. I can tell you how to find the first one (Galaga). WHen you enter the house for the first time you will encounter David before you walk into Jeremiah's room for the first time. Instead of entering the room and cutscene walk to the end of the hall where the double doors are. If you shoot the upper left and right corners of the doorarch (you will see a small button depress if the shot is accurate) the double doors will swing open and you will find a minigame. As Bats and Flickering Stalkers fly by you need to eliminate them before they escape. there are 10 rounds of this. You win things forcomepleting it I believe. IF not just a silly challenge.
Look for Giant Sheep around the farm house near the Monastery.
Someone has to have an explanation for the others somewhere on these boards.
Third question - why did Jerimayah(sorry for mistakes) give the stone to Patrick and didn't just still it, when he was sleeping???
And when did Jerimayah actually understood that the stone is a very unique and a powerful artifact? I'm asking this questions because i am just confused of that fact that Jerimayah didn't still the stone or kill Patrick. Of course there is the fact that he wanted Patrick to kill his siblings, but he could've done it with the stone by himself.
Jeremiah didnt understand the stones full significance until he returned to the Manor. Also he couldnt risk returning with it for all his siblings would know and try to take it. For the time it was safer with Patrick. Plus he had some long term revenge planned for dying on that field.
In the catacombs of the monastery in one of the rooms there was some writing with how i uderstood mirror image - so u can read it only if you have a mirror, or is it just some old language?
I believe the artists found some cool images. Of course there were many of these Scrye moments some of them legible others just creepy.
Glad you like the game.

Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying
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Katran
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 08:49:34 PM »

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Marble
Posted - 4 June 2004 20:35 PST      

First of all, thanks for all of the other info.
My question is probably pretty simple. At the end of the game after you beat the king you end up on a boat (it seemed). Who is on that boat? And it seems as though they take the G stone, is that so? And if so any spacific reason? Or just because its powerfull?
Thanks for your help.


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Anthony
Posted - 5 June 2004 17:16 PST      

I am so sorry for my english in my posts - i don't know english very well, i am from Russia and their is a lot of fans of Undying =))
I didn't ask all of mine questions, so here are some more, if you don't mind ;-))
Why in the beginning Aaron attacks you in his real body and doesn't damage you? And why does he attack you? I am asking this, becaues it's also quite confusing - if he attacked in the beginnig then why does he then attackes like in that form(eatin by rats) Only when you kill Keisnger in his realm? I mean, why doesn't he attack you when he was searching for the book in the library or all those other situations?
Second question - Why when Ambrose "kills" Jerimayah there is No Blood? Or am i just mistaking =))
Third questions - Why does Jerimayah lets you actually kill him? He Knows that all his sisters and brothers are dead - chopped off head by the scythe. I just have this really mad idea - maybe he Was corrupted by the King and he wanted to free him - sacrifice himself and free the King.
Fourth question - in the end we see the king and then just slipes in the ground and (correct me if i am wrong) Turns into this horrible creature. But after you kill him it's not the king - it's a guardian to another portal? So ho is it in the end - The King ot the guardina - or the King aka The Guardian?
And sorry for my stupid question - by what are this aeons you are talking about? I just couldn't understand =))
And my last question(well, not thee last, just the last in this post) - Who wrote those creepy and magnificant songs in the menu of Undying? I just love this music? could you please tell me the name of the gruop or the singer?
Thank you very much for your answers and for your time, talking with fans of your fantastic game Smiley) This doesn't happen every day, that people working on the projects answer the fans questions Smiley)))))


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katran
Posted - 10 June 2004 12:22 PST      

I can answer your question about the music. That was done by Bill Brown. Here's a link to his site, which contains samples of his work (you'll have to cut and paste):
http://billbrownmusic.com/musicG4.htm#Undying

I'd check out his other music samples too. He's done work for lots of games and other projects, and a lot of it is quite cool.
Also notice that he has a track called 'Immortal Soul' in his Undying samples. It doesn't appear anywhere in the game (unfortunately, as it is one of my favorite pieces by him).
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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katran
Posted - 10 June 2004 12:23 PST      

I can answer your question about the music. That was done by Bill Brown. Here's a link to his site, which contains samples of his work (you'll have to cut and paste):
http://billbrownmusic.com/musicG4.htm#Undying

I'd check out his other music samples too. He's done work for lots of games and other projects, and a lot of it is quite cool.
Also notice that he has a track called 'Immortal Soul' in his Undying samples. It doesn't appear anywhere in the game (unfortunately, as it is one of my favorite pieces by him).
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


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Syn-Bu_san
Posted - 10 June 2004 12:35 PST      

Nana: *shoves Syn in the fridge so she can answer a question* I can answer a question! When Jeremiah is "killed" by Ambrose (syn thinks ambrose is hot by the way)-
Syn: DO NOT!
Nana:Uh-huh,well anyway there is no blood since Jer had been dead for quite some time so he didn't really have any blood as he was the undead and didn't need blood anymore. I hope I haven't confused you guys much...
Syn: You are dead, do you hear me, Nana!?
Nana: hehe Syn didn't like me telling that did she. . .?


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Tempest
Posted - 10 June 2004 12:36 PST      

O.O
You DO Syn? I didn't expect that from you...


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Devillo The Worm
Posted - 11 June 2004 9:32 PST      

There wasnt any blood because it would have taken too long to animate for the cutscene, let alone having to worry about the slightly wobbly way the cord around the stone fitted on Patrick.
*sadistic smile* Im kidding, Im just havin a laugh. The storyline is fantastic, and small technical things are the problem for a lot of games, including very recent ones.
My new question which has been burning for a while now. The Verago. Whats their story, their origions, their agenda if you will. Plus, the Skarrow. They didnt appear much in the game, but were referred as the oldest of the inhabitants of Oneirios. So were they like the primary citizens, or were all of the Onerios creatures just interdimensional loafers who after the city was blown into their relm, they took over the ruins?
And finally, the Monto Shonoi. Both Aaron and Bethany were able to summon these guys, with Bethany specialising in the Greater Monto'Shonoi. Was this a family thing, as they were twins, or were the Monto'Shonoi servitors of the King, similar to the Handmaidens, and all of the Covenents tied to the curse at the right level could summon them? Thanks for your time mate.


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Roakana
Posted - 11 June 2004 11:28 PST      

My new question which has been burning for a while now. The Verago. Whats their story, their origions, their agenda if you will.
----
Verago are the remnants of the inhabitants of Oneiros. They were great magic users who dabbled too much with the Arcane and ended up being corrupted and all but wiped out by it.
---
Plus, the Skarrow. They didnt appear much in the game, but were referred as the oldest of the inhabitants of Oneirios. So were they like the primary citizens, or were all of the Onerios creatures just interdimensional loafers who after the city was blown into their relm, they took over the ruins?
---
Scarrow are interdimensional squatters. Think of them as magic scavengers. Oneiros has become a location for many displaced or transient races. The Flickering Stalkers have a similar background.
---
And finally, the Monto Shonoi. Both Aaron and Bethany were able to summon these guys, with Bethany specialising in the Greater Monto'Shonoi. Was this a family thing, as they were twins, or were the Monto'Shonoi servitors of the King, similar to the Handmaidens, and all of the Covenents tied to the curse at the right level could summon them? Thanks for your time mate.
---
Monto'Shonoi are another interdimentional entity. Bethany is for all intents a summoner by nature. Since they are devestating hunters they are a natural choice for her "creature" arsenal.
Aaron on the other hand through his insanity and drug addiction combined with curse is able to see these other dimentions and tap into them through his paintings.
---
I am so sorry for my english in my posts - i don't know english very well, i am from Russia and their is a lot of fans of Undying =))
---
You dont know how cool it is to realize we have fans all around the world. I am glad you found the site and I could help answer your questions.
Is there a Russian Translation or are you playing it in English?
---
Why in the beginning Aaron attacks you in his real body and doesn't damage you? And why does he attack you? I am asking this, becaues it's also quite confusing - if he attacked in the beginnig then why does he then attackes like in that form(eatin by rats) Only when you kill Keisnger in his realm? I mean, why doesn't he attack you when he was searching for the book in the library or all those other situations?
---
Aaron wasnt actually a hostile entity. He simply wanted Patrick to leave and stay out of family business. So in the beginning he tried to scare him or drive him off by throwing knives plates etc. Aaron was simply crazy.
Later once Patrick had killed off some siblings and was starting to unravel the mystery Aaron became threatened and began to attack.
---
Second question - Why when Ambrose "kills" Jerimayah there is No Blood? Or am i just mistaking =))
---
This was answered correctly by another poster... Jer was already dead. However only the Scythe could truly destroy a sibling so it was just a sizable inconvenience for Jer. It ended up being a convenient situation for Jer as well since it now seemed he had died and Patrick was driven by revenge.
---
Third questions - Why does Jerimayah lets you actually kill him? He Knows that all his sisters and brothers are dead - chopped off head by the scythe. I just have this really mad idea - maybe he Was corrupted by the King and he wanted to free him - sacrifice himself and free the King.
---
Jeremiah mistakenly believed that now that his siblings were dead he could claim the power of the Undying King for himself. He didnt understand the true nature of the curse nor his role to play in it.
---
Fourth question - in the end we see the king and then just slipes in the ground and (correct me if i am wrong) Turns into this horrible creature. But after you kill him it's not the king - it's a guardian to another portal? So ho is it in the end - The King ot the guardina - or the King aka The Guardian?
---
K this is confusing (intentionally) because the Celtic King was the original seal to hold the Undying King in place. The children broke that seal but the body remained. SO when the Undying King was finally awakened the Corpse of the Celt was ejected and came crashing down at the feet of Patrick. In efffect this was done to deceive the player and maintain the surprise of the Undying King. Obviously by your question we did a real good job. (Pyrric Victory perhaps)
---
And sorry for my stupid question - by what are this aeons you are talking about? I just couldn't understand =))
---
H.P. Lovecraft in his writings about the Cthulu Mythos had a quote "in Strange Aeons even Death may die." We used "Strange Aeons" as the original title of the game. that is why many of our docs and file extensions have an SA in them.
---
And my last question(well, not thee last, just the last in this post) - Who wrote those creepy and magnificant songs in the menu of Undying? I just love this music? could you please tell me the name of the gruop or the singer?
---
Yep Bill Brown is the Composer. Hella talented guy.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


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Syn-Bu_san
Posted - 11 June 2004 23:30 PST      

Hello! Tis only Nana this time...
Why did Jer summon Patrick to the Estate to kill his brothers and sisters? Could Jer not do it himself or sumthin? Or did Jer just need an excuse to have the Gel'ziabar stone from Patrick?
Or was Jer unable to weild the Scythe as he was dead and therefore couldn't kill his siblings?
"Big sis? My arm came off."
- Catsoup


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Asc
Posted - 12 June 2004 11:1 PST      

Without meaning too burst anyone's blood bubble, as it were, Patrick doesn't bleed when he dies either. Like, in the cutscenes where a howler (or any number of other things) takes his head off.
(*gasp*! He's dead too!... :p )


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the OTHER guy
Posted - 12 June 2004 12:48 PST      

Earlier, I had asked if the Hound of Gel'ziabar had killed Patrick. I guess now we know...
----------------------------
Proud member of ASinine Servants in the Holy Order of Language ElitistS.
A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.: Chicken Soup for the Grammar.

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Devillo The Worm
Posted - 12 June 2004 14:3 PST      

Thanks very much for answering the questionas Roakana. I always thought the Scarrow seemed like miserible old men who mooched off others, lurking in alleys etc. Fantastic character creation. I dont want to have to bore you with questions about the origions of EVERY single creature and specise in Undying (even though we are the sort to ask), but for example, the Handamidens just seem to be there without much backstory. Its clear they serve Bethany, but because they serve the king, or like you said, she's got a nack for picking the really naty beasties. However... what is their story? lol. Sorry, had to ask.
One more thing, dont take this the wrong way, but I was playing last night (getting screen shots of Onerios for reference, kudos on the Ziggurat) when I saw a flickering stalker and thought, aha, I never actually got killed by these guys, I wonder what happens. In the early parts of the game, you were sure to die,a nd all the cool death animations were one of the BEST selling points of the game. However, I stood there and waited for the stalker to attack, and it just kept circling me for hours, taking an occasional bite and just continued to run away and come back again. Terrorfiyng when your running from it, but just stand there and it hardly does any damage at all. I was there 15 minutes and it didnt kill me. I even broke out the war cannon and shot the wall repeatedly, but I still kept healing too fast for the stalker to do anything. then I accidently hit the stalker and it died.
Marvellous. *wry smirk*
On a sidenote, I was demonstrating undying to a friend of mine, using the Helleraiser based 3rd person map from this site as an example, and while being attacked by a stalker, a Verago fired his skullstorm at me, missed, nearly hit the stalker, and then the stalker hissed angrily, flew past me, and charged after the Verago which scarped like bloody hell. I have never laughed so hard in my life at something in a game, especially something as.... bizzare as that. Really, it was just too funny for words. And if your wondering who won, the Stalker soon came back to dish out his revenge, but got killed. Heh.
The thing was, later I tried the same thing with a few lesser Monto Shoni. In the first instance, it as the same as with the stalker, I kept healing as the beastie tried his damndest to kill me. Not to much effect however, but it did give me the opportunity to see the charming way the folds around his mouth churl up as he growls at you, and the petals of flesh on his head. delightful. Anyway, i find 2 or more of the guys, and let them deal out what they can.... and I die. No animation, nothing. The camera falls, and your dead. Hmnnnn,I know it must have taken a helluva time to animate, and there was the whole issue of getting the game out on time etc, but did you really have to cut out the cool death scenes. Are these the only ones who do this, or are there others which miss out this fantastic feature, and is there anyway some sad obsessed lunatic (no shortage here... KIDDING, KIDDING) could animate them and slot em in?
Thanks as ever for your time and tolerating my prattle.
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Katran
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 08:54:31 PM »

Quote
Roakana
Posted - 12 June 2004 15:35 PST       

Why did Jer summon Patrick to the Estate to kill his brothers and sisters? Could Jer not do it himself or sumthin? Or did Jer just need an excuse to have the Gel'ziabar stone from Patrick?
Or was Jer unable to weild the Scythe as he was dead and therefore couldn't kill his siblings?
---
The scythe was an unknown to any of the siblings. Jer needed the G'stone because he figured it had power to throw the balance between the siblings. He also figured Patrick would be a good pawn to take down his siblings. Remember there were 5 siblings there was no way one could take down the others.
---
Thanks very much for answering the questionas Roakana. I always thought the Scarrow seemed like miserible old men who mooched off others, lurking in alleys etc. Fantastic character creation. I dont want to have to bore you with questions about the origions of EVERY single creature and specise in Undying (even though we are the sort to ask), but for example, the Handamidens just seem to be there without much backstory. Its clear they serve Bethany, but because they serve the king, or like you said, she's got a nack for picking the really naty beasties. However... what is their story? lol. Sorry, had to ask.
---
Handmaidens are Bethany's creation. if you look up close they have porcelin masks like victorian dolls. behind it is a grotesque mockery of a face. They were her demented version of servants. Must have missed all the hired help around the mansion.
Bethany used blood magic to summon and create her minions.
---
One more thing, dont take this the wrong way, but I was playing last night (getting screen shots of Onerios for reference, kudos on the Ziggurat) when I saw a flickering stalker and thought, aha, I never actually got killed by these guys, I wonder what happens. In the early parts of the game, you were sure to die,a nd all the cool death animations were one of the BEST selling points of the game. However, I stood there and waited for the stalker to attack, and it just kept circling me for hours, taking an occasional bite and just continued to run away and come back again. Terrorfiyng when your running from it, but just stand there and it hardly does any damage at all. I was there 15 minutes and it didnt kill me. I even broke out the war cannon and shot the wall repeatedly, but I still kept healing too fast for the stalker to do anything. then I accidently hit the stalker and it died.
Marvellous. *wry smirk*
On a sidenote, I was demonstrating undying to a friend of mine, using the Helleraiser based 3rd person map from this site as an example, and while being attacked by a stalker, a Verago fired his skullstorm at me, missed, nearly hit the stalker, and then the stalker hissed angrily, flew past me, and charged after the Verago which scarped like bloody hell. I have never laughed so hard in my life at something in a game, especially something as.... bizzare as that. Really, it was just too funny for words. And if your wondering who won, the Stalker soon came back to dish out his revenge, but got killed. Heh.
The thing was, later I tried the same thing with a few lesser Monto Shoni. In the first instance, it as the same as with the stalker, I kept healing as the beastie tried his damndest to kill me. Not to much effect however, but it did give me the opportunity to see the charming way the folds around his mouth churl up as he growls at you, and the petals of flesh on his head. delightful. Anyway, i find 2 or more of the guys, and let them deal out what they can.... and I die. No animation, nothing. The camera falls, and your dead. Hmnnnn,I know it must have taken a helluva time to animate, and there was the whole issue of getting the game out on time etc, but did you really have to cut out the cool death scenes. Are these the only ones who do this, or are there others which miss out this fantastic feature, and is there anyway some sad obsessed lunatic (no shortage here... KIDDING, KIDDING) could animate them and slot em in?
Thanks as ever for your time and tolerating my prattle.
---
I thought I remembered a cool death anim for the Stalkers. Sorry I dont remember what it is now. THe Monto Shonoi death anim only works for the large version. If you havent seen it is pretty much the coolest one in the game. After you see it you will realize there is no way the small ones could have it look right so we had to block it from them.
Each and every monster has a cool kill patrick anim except the Mini Monto's. Check em all out. worth the save and load.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 12 June 2004 15:40 PST       

Also they dont always do their animations. They have to be close enough and oriented correctly for it to work. You should see it pretty frequently though. at least 1 in 4 times.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
Asc
Posted - 13 June 2004 18:7 PST       

In my experience, auto-healing doesn't occur if the difficulty is above "normal".

Quote
katran
Posted - 13 June 2004 20:44 PST       

Speaking of the music earlier, why wasn't Bill Brown's track "Immortal Soul" used in the game?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 14 June 2004 10:58 PST       

Dont really know why Immortal Soul wasnt used. Music is always added in at the end of a project, often rushed. It could have easily been overlooked or one of many other things could have happened.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying

Quote
Anthony
Posted - 16 June 2004 16:25 PST      

Roakana, i bought the not-pirate disk and it was with the russian translation by professional actors =)) it kinda was just like the english version, but the english was much spooky, yep))


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 16 June 2004 17:31 PST      

Cool Im glad you were able to experience it.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
katran
Posted - 17 June 2004 0:24 PST      

Hey Roakana, I just started playing the game again from the beginning, and noticed the name Peter Roakana in Evaline's letter to her mother. And of course, I thought of you. Smiley


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 17 June 2004 11:41 PST      

Yeppers thats me. Peter is my first name. I go by my middle name, Dell, however.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
katran
Posted - 17 June 2004 11:49 PST      

Cool! I'm making a conscious effort to try and spot things like that on this go-around of gameplay. In the past, I've always been so busy checking out the details of the scenery and "set design", so to speak, that I wasn't looking for other things as much.



Quote
katran
Posted - 18 June 2004 13:35 PST      

Is it just me, or is there blood on one of the windows in Bethany's office?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose

"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


Quote
Raevynlocks
Posted - 18 June 2004 16:34 PST      

Roakana,
I've got a question for you. I noticed that throughout the Covenant Manor there are several different paintings on the walls that seem to foreshadow Patrick's beheading of the Covenants. For example, in the Great Hall of Paintings, (on the wall next to the huge Covenant family portrait) the painting "Judith Slaying Holofernes" by the Baroque painter Artemisia Gentileschi can be seen. I imagine that this painting was chosen to be in the game because it was a particularly violent image and/or because it was a way to sort of hint at what Patrick had to do to defeat the Covenants. There are other paintings like this in the house; another example is the image of David carrying the head of Goliath in the room where Ambrose kills Jeremiah. Was this intentional on the part of the art department to foreshadow the fate of the undead Covenants? Or were these images intended to be accepted as Aaron's violent paintings that had been hung up in the house? Or did the Covenants just like to collect violent art? Wink Very, very clever. These ingenious little touches throughout the game really add to the overall experience.
Can you tell us anything interesting about the voice actors? I think Undying had some of the best voice acting I've ever encountered in a game. I recognized three of the actors from one of my other favorite games, a Dreamcast game called Maken X. It has some interesting resemblences to Undying--it's a mature title, it's an amazing game that didn't get the attention it deserved, it's a first-person perspective game that was story-driven and interesting instead of a mere body pile-up and bullet-fest, and it has some of the same voice actors.
Ah! I didn't realize Peter Roakana was your real name! I recognized the last name from the game, but I thought it was just the moniker that you'd chosen for the board. Ha ha, oh dear, that means Evaline chose Joseph over you. But you were so patient with her and you even gave her a necklace! Tsk, tsk. We women are such fickle creatures. Wink
--------------------
"Your ''reality'', sir, is full of lies and balderdash, and I am delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever!" --Baron Munchausen
I ate my pillow because it looked like a marshmallow.


Quote
Roakana
Posted - 18 June 2004 18:53 PST      

Peter Dellekamp Siefert is my real name. Roakana is my handle. That was just a little touch the Assistant Producer put in for fun. There are actually a number of team members mentioned throughout the journal entries. (I dont recall which ones)
The pictures were definatley intentional. We wanted to forshadow the events in the game and have some fun with it. We didnt worry to much about justtifying why they had all the violent art but I guess it does make the Covenants a little creepier if you think of it that way.
SOme of he paintings were Aarons. Especially the ones that are paintings of Oneiros, Eternal Autumn etc.
Voice wise the most interesting thing is that Clive was the voice of Ambrose. This had been posted before but it is none the less a nice touch. He has a very gravelly voice.
One of the voice actors I believe was Duke Nukem. We have some outakes of him insulting one of our programmers "Keebler." Pretty funny stuff but probably wont see the light of day due to legal issues.
Other than that my Lani Minnela organized the actors for the sessions. My producer actually handled the recordings I wasnt there.
Dellekamp Siefert
Roakana
Game Designer, Undying


Quote
the OTHER guy
Posted - 18 June 2004 19:2 PST      

Women are indeed such fickle beasts, Raevynlocks. I can't believe your mother would let you play around with things of such evil! She let you play with sacrifical knives and demonic possessions and even Pandora's box, but noooo... You had go and ignore all her warning and buy a Dreamcast! Why I even went and told your mother at the sacrificial burial at the standing stones that you come to good! She was too enamored of some idiot in a goatee to register whtat I was saying. What was his name? Kissinger-- no! Kiesenger!! That was it! Next time I see her it's three thousand years later and three months too late! The nerve of her! Not even ONE LETTER!!!!
My personal belief is that those paintings were meant to foreshadow the ensuing horrors, yes, particularly the beheadings. Aaron, I believe, was more likely to paint scenes of landscapes or dark rituals. To the eye of the common art collector, these scenes would appear to be the combination of the artistic genius of Salvador Dali and the unadulterated look straight into the face of evil that the Marquis de Sade provided. A most bizarre and indeed tanalizing mixture I must say.
EDIT: Damn! A day late and a dollar short! Roakana stole my thunder. Oh well....
----------------------------
Proud member of ASinine Servants in the Holy Order of Language ElitistS.

A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.: Chicken Soup for the Grammar.
Edited by - the OTHER guy on 6/18/2004 8:14:30 PM


Quote
Syn-Bu_san
Posted - 22 June 2004 13:56 PST      

Nana again.
Uh I just wanted to ask is there any real background behind the Trsanti witches? Are they like harem for the Trsanti or something? And why won't Invoke work on them? Justa few questions.
Tis great havin em answered.

"Big sis? My arm came off."
- Catsoup


Quote
katran
Posted - 22 June 2004 17:27 PST      

There are two locked doors in the game that you can't seem to get into. One is across the hall from Jeremiah's room, and the other is in the barroom near Ambrose's room. The only way I could get through these doors was to use the Astral cheat. The door across from Jeremiah's room just seems to be dead space, but the door in the barroom has another room behind it, with a secret passageway to the east wing. I've tried getting through that door, and I've also tried entering via the secret passageway, but haven't had any luck either way. Am I missing something, or was it a "forgotten" part of the map?
----------------------------
"Feel the bite of my axe!"--Ambrose
"And thy enemies, being naughty in thy sight, shall snuff it."--Monty Python


Quote
the OTHER guy
Posted - 22 June 2004 18:57 PST      

I have but a few questions regarding Oneiros.
1. What is the huge yellow ball at the botom of the sky box?
2. What happened to Oneiros?
3. Why?
4. Are Flickering Stalkers supposed to look like flying fish or Medusa heads?
5. If you fall in Oneiros, do you fall forever, or is there a bottom?
6. If scrying reveals that which is not there (the unreal), then does it show the real in this nonexistant realm?
7. If Oneiros is a dreamworld, then who is dreaming it? (I blame Lewis Carroll.)
8. And if Oneiros is the realm of their dreams, then what of their nightmares? (Efialtis perhaps? --Greek for nightmare.)
Thx.
----------------------------
Proud member of ASinine Servants in the Holy Order of Language ElitistS.
A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.: Chicken Soup for the Grammar.


Quote
Raevynlocks
Posted - 23 June 2004 7:44 PST      

Thanks for the answers, Roakana. I thought that the images must be intentional. Again, that was such a clever touch among many. Yes, I think Clive did a phenomenal job as the voice of Ambrose. That gravelly voice of his was so distinctive and Iíll always remember it.
Lani Manella is great. Smiley Sheís been in so many games. Do you happen to know if she played both Bethany and Lizbeth?
Nana and the OTHER guy: Nice questions, and ones Iíve had as well, especially about Oneiros. Roakana, Iíve always thought that Oneiros and its mysteries were supposed to be a bit vague in this game so that more could be revealed in the planned sequel to Undying. Is this true?
Nana, about the Trsanti witches: I donít think they were a harem--I always viewed them as just regular members of the Trsanti tribe. Being female, they probably had different powers than the males, and likely focused more on developing their magic skills (offensive as well as defensive) to overcome any physical limitations. They actually seemed to be failry high in the ranks--during the Ambrose quest, when the Trsanti raid the Covenant manor, the couple of witches that come along seem to be the ones calling the shots. I got the impression that the Trsanti men were a bunch of war-mongering bullies and the women were supposed to be more intelligent, manipulative, and powerful. Even Shanta herself mentions that the Trsanti men are weak-minded and followed Ambrose without question. But this is just my interpretation. Smiley
Oh, by the way, the OTHER guy:
Cheesy
<< I can't believe your mother would let you play around with things of such evil! She let you play with sacrifical knives and demonic possessions and even Pandora's box, but noooo...>>
She lets me play with rats, too! Don't forget them! They crawled all over me this morning, overpowering me and forcing me to give up my oatmeal!
Wait a minute...are you insulting my Dreamcast??
*Southern belle voice* You have insulted mah honor, Sir! *removes a dainty glove and whacks the OTHER guy on the face* Wink I love my Dreamcast!
<<Why I even went and told your mother at the sacrificial burial at the standing stones that you come to good! She was too enamored of some idiot in a goatee to register whtat I was saying.>>
Yeah, but can you really blame her? That goatee is pretty mesmerizing...
<<Aaron, I believe, was more likely to paint scenes of landscapes or dark rituals.>>
Yes, and the occasional "there's a monster floating behind you" painting. Smiley Dream realms destroyed by a magical cataclysm? A dying realm populated with nightmare creatures? *snort* Please. If Aaron needs some *real* inspiration, he needs to come to my house and paint my kitchen, especially the sink area that has dishes piled up in it that I've neglected to clean for over a week. Now that is something truly horrific.
I envision him writing another dramatic journal entry about it, right next to his Eternal Autumn entry:
"I have seen the depths of hell, and it resides here in this ungodly amalgamation of slime and muck--the metal bowls, teeming with lifeforms previously unknown to this world, fill me with dread as the stench relentlessly penetrates my entire body."
Raevynlocks: *comes in* "What the hell are you doing in my kitchen?"
Aaron: *scribbles more in his journal* "It is she, the Eternal Mistress of Filth..."


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Katran
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 09:00:06 PM »

Quote
Athena
Posted - 23 June 2004 14:57 PST        

*has a giggle fit*
jd10013
Posted - 23 June 2004 16:38 PST      

i've got two questions that have been asked many times here, but for some reason, not in this thread.
1. now, no insult is meant in this, and dont answer if you don't want to. But, in your opinion, why didn't the game sell very well? the story was great, the graphics were great at the time, it ran smooth, and was a very good game. most of the game mags rated it very high. the low sales have always been confusing, and an oppinion from someone involved in it would be interesting. and, just how many coppies did it sell? did it loose money, break even or what?
2. Exatly how may manna wells are in the game? 10 would seem to make sense, but to my knowldge nobody has ever found more than 9.


Quote
the OTHER guy
Posted - 23 June 2004 16:47 PST      

*Rubs sore face* And you have mine, ma'am! Perha'aps if you would be so kind as to expla'ain yo'self as to why you feel such a way with a console, thusly fo'saking yo' true callin' that *is* the PC. Perha'aps then I could ask yo' fo'giveness, ma'am. Ah'm afraid Ah cannot redeem mah honor without first knowin', ma'am.</Southern Gentleman>
It is she who lurks in the garbage, the Eternal Mistress of Filth: Raevynlocks.
----------------------------
Proud member of ASinine Servants in the Holy Order of Language ElitistS.
A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.: Chicken Soup for the Grammar.


Quote
dr_coma
Posted - 23 June 2004 19:5 PST      

Hey Mistress of Eternal Filth, my kitchen is dirtier than the floors of Hell. Actually it's not so bad anymore; at least you don't need a contamination suit to wash the dishes. Speaking of dishes: I remember one day I came home from work and heard a bunch of plates being thrown around and smashed to pieces against the wall. For a second I thought it was some sort of strange poltergeist haunting my apartment, but it turned out it was just the cockroaches playing frisbee.


Quote
Athena
Posted - 23 June 2004 20:47 PST        

<<Yes, and the occasional "there's a monster floating behind you" painting. Smiley>>
And the occasional painting of Beth--
*sees Bethany glaring at her*
Oh, er, I mean the occasional painting of the gory fates of those who entered Bethany's room without knocking.... Wink
<<For a second I thought it was some sort of strange poltergeist haunting my apartment, but it turned out it was just the cockroaches playing frisbee.>>
*has another giggle fit*


Well, that's it folks.  That's all I have of that thread.  I had thought there was more to it, so if anyone has anything beyond that, please feel free to add it here or send it to me and I'll add it.
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CamKrist
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 07:31:54 AM »

Similar subject was being discussed at yahoo answers last week. I can post the link if needed.
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cabela
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 07:38:23 PM »

Yes, if you post the link to the discussion here. We would love to see other discussions on Undying.
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